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What if the Americans
won the War of 1812?
Transcript from a conversation on CBC's The
National on Feb. 19, 2001
Below is the partial transcript of a conversation
on CBC television's The National with Peter
Mansbridge on Feb. 19, 2001 in Montreal.
Mansbridge sat down with Montrealers and
students from McGill and Concordia
universities to talk about what might have
been had things gone differently in Canadian
history. Below is the introduction by
ansbridge, followed by the part concerning
what might have happened had the Americans
been victorious in conquering Canada during
the War of 1812.
Mansbridge's introduction
PETER MANSBRIDGE: And good evening. Welcome to something we
haven't tried before. We're going to spend an evening looking at our
nation's history, not only as it was, but how it might have been. We're
here with an audience of Montrealers and with some students we
recruited from McGill and Concordia universities. At our request, those
students have worked up some questions based on Canada's past.
They know and you know what happened in our history, but tonight
they're going to wonder what if? What if something had turned out
differently? How might that have changed the country we have today?
We're hoping for an enlightening and entertaining evening. Now, we've
come to Montreal because it, of course, is a city full of history. Old
Montreal is the heart of Montreal's history. Place Jacques-Cartier has
stood for more than 150 years and has always been a meeting place for
Montrealers and tourists alike. Montreal City Hall, ruined in a fire in 1922,
was restored by 1926, taking as its model the city hall of Tour in France.
It was here that Charles Dugal declared "vivre le Quebec libre". The
Balsecour Market goes back to 1847. It once housed the colonial
Parliament. Later it became Montreal's City Hall. It was the city's principle
public market for more than a hundred years. And Notre Dame Basilica, it
was built in the 1820s. At the time, it was by far the largest church in
North America. It has been a scene of countless events, most recently
the funerals of Maurice Richard and Pierre Trudeau. For us, always great
to be here in Montreal. Now a little more business before we get to the
questions. Let me tell you how you can be a part of our program. If
you're watching us live on Newsworld or on the main network in Atlantic
Canada, you can send us questions or comments via e-mail at the
address you now see. If you're watching elsewhere, send your
comments to this address and we'll try to get them on as we get on the
air. We'll also be including questions that were sent to our web site last
week where the response has been, quite frankly, overwhelming. We
can't get to all of them, but of course some questions you asked are
similar to questions that will come from our students.
And one last thing to do, introduce you to the group of people who will
be letting their minds consider the paths not taken. Desmond Morton is
the Director of the McGill Institute for the Study of Canada. Margaret
Conrad is a professor of history at Acadia University in Wolfville, Nova
Scotia. Stephen Augustine is a native history researcher at the Canadian
Museum of Civilization. Adele Perry is a professor of history at the
University of Manitoba. Jean Claude Robert is the chair of the history
department at the University of Quebec at Montreal. And Mark Starowicz
is the creator and executive producer of "Canada, a People's History,"
the series that has been widely praised and which frankly inspired us to
do this town hall tonight.
The conversation on 1812
MANSBRIDGE: What would've happened if the Americans had won the
war of 1812-14? Who of our distinguished group would like to start that
off? Margaret?
CONRAD: Well, the Atlantic region would've been in an interesting
situation since they were benefiting so much from the war and
smuggling and so on, if the Americans had decided to take over that part
of Canada as well, it would've been full scale war as opposed to sort of
a frontier war up here and upper Canada at that time. So it may have
meant that that war was long prolonged, and brought Great Britain and
much large, their soldiers in much larger numbers and maybe, maybe the
United States would've been defeated.
MANSBRIDGE: Des?
MORTON: Let's remember your point. Brock is killed. Queenston is a
great disaster. The small British army dissolves. They take upper
Canada. That's, those are the people in that war who wanted to take
upper Canada. Were they interested in lower Canada? No. The very
people who are upset about seamen's rights didn't even get involved in
the fight. So perhaps we would have a Canada minus. Or from my point
of view, a much more interesting Canada in some ways with Qu‰bec
and pre-Atlantic colonies as they were then. That's a different scenario.
Let the Americans have the place where I was raised, western Canada.
And Ontario and British Columbia and the native people who were the
main residents of that area. That's a different Canada, isn't it? It's not
wiping out all of what now exists in Canada. It's a half or two thirds of
the country gone. Now that's a possibility. And you can all contemplate
it. My mother was born in New York and she was dual citizen. I guess I
would've been a one cent citizen. It just shows you. Horrible thought,
but conceivable.
MANSBRIDGE: Adele?
PERRY: I think one of the things that would've been different is English
Canadian nationalism would've probably developed differently because
the war of 1812, if nothing else, has been sort of a stalwart kind of
peace of where English Canadians understand themselves as creating a
different vision of a North American nation against the American
neighbours and a successful one. And if there wasn't that memory to
kind of hang a national ideology around, I think what would've
happened to the way English Canada thinks of itself would be very
different.
MANSBRIDGE: Stephen? Would it have made a difference to native
Canadians?
STEPHEN AUGUSTINE (Museum of Civilization): I think that was their
last hoorah with Tecumseh and, and I think it would've made a bigger
difference in the sense that they have had developed different
relationships with the United States and the United States was not
supporting the Indian people in that area. And I think they would've, the
outcome would've been more, I think the Indian people could've been
pushed further west into Indian, so-called Indian territory and the
United States government had done that in the south.
MANSBRIDGE: Mark?
STAROWICZ: As, as had been suggested, I think Ontario, which was
largely American loyalist or late loyalist settlers looking for land and that
was largely British army that fought it Queenston. Ontario would be
American, the west would be American, British Columbia would be
Americans. I'm not so sure that Atlantic Canada would not have joined
the union at that point. And, and whether or not French Canada would
survive is probably the question of the evening. Would it survive a, an
American continent?
For the entire transcript from The National, visit http://tv.cbc.
ca/national/trans/T010219.html.
won the War of 1812?
Transcript from a conversation on CBC's The
National on Feb. 19, 2001
Below is the partial transcript of a conversation
on CBC television's The National with Peter
Mansbridge on Feb. 19, 2001 in Montreal.
Mansbridge sat down with Montrealers and
students from McGill and Concordia
universities to talk about what might have
been had things gone differently in Canadian
history. Below is the introduction by
ansbridge, followed by the part concerning
what might have happened had the Americans
been victorious in conquering Canada during
the War of 1812.
Mansbridge's introduction
PETER MANSBRIDGE: And good evening. Welcome to something we
haven't tried before. We're going to spend an evening looking at our
nation's history, not only as it was, but how it might have been. We're
here with an audience of Montrealers and with some students we
recruited from McGill and Concordia universities. At our request, those
students have worked up some questions based on Canada's past.
They know and you know what happened in our history, but tonight
they're going to wonder what if? What if something had turned out
differently? How might that have changed the country we have today?
We're hoping for an enlightening and entertaining evening. Now, we've
come to Montreal because it, of course, is a city full of history. Old
Montreal is the heart of Montreal's history. Place Jacques-Cartier has
stood for more than 150 years and has always been a meeting place for
Montrealers and tourists alike. Montreal City Hall, ruined in a fire in 1922,
was restored by 1926, taking as its model the city hall of Tour in France.
It was here that Charles Dugal declared "vivre le Quebec libre". The
Balsecour Market goes back to 1847. It once housed the colonial
Parliament. Later it became Montreal's City Hall. It was the city's principle
public market for more than a hundred years. And Notre Dame Basilica, it
was built in the 1820s. At the time, it was by far the largest church in
North America. It has been a scene of countless events, most recently
the funerals of Maurice Richard and Pierre Trudeau. For us, always great
to be here in Montreal. Now a little more business before we get to the
questions. Let me tell you how you can be a part of our program. If
you're watching us live on Newsworld or on the main network in Atlantic
Canada, you can send us questions or comments via e-mail at the
address you now see. If you're watching elsewhere, send your
comments to this address and we'll try to get them on as we get on the
air. We'll also be including questions that were sent to our web site last
week where the response has been, quite frankly, overwhelming. We
can't get to all of them, but of course some questions you asked are
similar to questions that will come from our students.
And one last thing to do, introduce you to the group of people who will
be letting their minds consider the paths not taken. Desmond Morton is
the Director of the McGill Institute for the Study of Canada. Margaret
Conrad is a professor of history at Acadia University in Wolfville, Nova
Scotia. Stephen Augustine is a native history researcher at the Canadian
Museum of Civilization. Adele Perry is a professor of history at the
University of Manitoba. Jean Claude Robert is the chair of the history
department at the University of Quebec at Montreal. And Mark Starowicz
is the creator and executive producer of "Canada, a People's History,"
the series that has been widely praised and which frankly inspired us to
do this town hall tonight.
The conversation on 1812
MANSBRIDGE: What would've happened if the Americans had won the
war of 1812-14? Who of our distinguished group would like to start that
off? Margaret?
CONRAD: Well, the Atlantic region would've been in an interesting
situation since they were benefiting so much from the war and
smuggling and so on, if the Americans had decided to take over that part
of Canada as well, it would've been full scale war as opposed to sort of
a frontier war up here and upper Canada at that time. So it may have
meant that that war was long prolonged, and brought Great Britain and
much large, their soldiers in much larger numbers and maybe, maybe the
United States would've been defeated.
MANSBRIDGE: Des?
MORTON: Let's remember your point. Brock is killed. Queenston is a
great disaster. The small British army dissolves. They take upper
Canada. That's, those are the people in that war who wanted to take
upper Canada. Were they interested in lower Canada? No. The very
people who are upset about seamen's rights didn't even get involved in
the fight. So perhaps we would have a Canada minus. Or from my point
of view, a much more interesting Canada in some ways with Qu‰bec
and pre-Atlantic colonies as they were then. That's a different scenario.
Let the Americans have the place where I was raised, western Canada.
And Ontario and British Columbia and the native people who were the
main residents of that area. That's a different Canada, isn't it? It's not
wiping out all of what now exists in Canada. It's a half or two thirds of
the country gone. Now that's a possibility. And you can all contemplate
it. My mother was born in New York and she was dual citizen. I guess I
would've been a one cent citizen. It just shows you. Horrible thought,
but conceivable.
MANSBRIDGE: Adele?
PERRY: I think one of the things that would've been different is English
Canadian nationalism would've probably developed differently because
the war of 1812, if nothing else, has been sort of a stalwart kind of
peace of where English Canadians understand themselves as creating a
different vision of a North American nation against the American
neighbours and a successful one. And if there wasn't that memory to
kind of hang a national ideology around, I think what would've
happened to the way English Canada thinks of itself would be very
different.
MANSBRIDGE: Stephen? Would it have made a difference to native
Canadians?
STEPHEN AUGUSTINE (Museum of Civilization): I think that was their
last hoorah with Tecumseh and, and I think it would've made a bigger
difference in the sense that they have had developed different
relationships with the United States and the United States was not
supporting the Indian people in that area. And I think they would've, the
outcome would've been more, I think the Indian people could've been
pushed further west into Indian, so-called Indian territory and the
United States government had done that in the south.
MANSBRIDGE: Mark?
STAROWICZ: As, as had been suggested, I think Ontario, which was
largely American loyalist or late loyalist settlers looking for land and that
was largely British army that fought it Queenston. Ontario would be
American, the west would be American, British Columbia would be
Americans. I'm not so sure that Atlantic Canada would not have joined
the union at that point. And, and whether or not French Canada would
survive is probably the question of the evening. Would it survive a, an
American continent?
For the entire transcript from The National, visit http://tv.cbc.
ca/national/trans/T010219.html.
| CBC HOST PETER MANSBRIDGE |